Chahoua X Ciliatus....

[smith710]

Ok, as you may know already, I should be getting a Chahoua soon.? I know some of us have talked about this before, but again, what do you guys think about cross breeding the Chahoua to the Ciliatus.? I'm debating whether or not to do it.? I'm not 100% sure that I like the whole thing, but I think that it would be kind of neat to do so.? Also, what do you guys think about Ciliatus morphs when it comes to cross breeding.? I wouldn't want to use one of the females that I have now, so I would probably be looking for another female to go with him.? What do all you guys think???

[samanthajane13]

Okay-how about this???

Crossing a human and a Bonobo Chimp-we're VERY closely related DNA-wise:  make a race of intelligent monkey-slaves to do all the work we don't want to do so life can be one endless vacation, or how about a Pit Bull and a Timber Wolf for the ultimate attack dog?  What if that hybrid dog got into the wrong hands-we already have people trying to legislate whether Pits or Pit hybrids have a right to live.  Do you think the governement is going to put the BREEDERS to death???  I think not...sadly...just the animals.

I'm really not trying to pick a fight or be sarcastic.

I know this is along way from cross-breeding geckos...butit really ISN'T so far-fetched.

Just because we CAN (or might be able to) do something, doesn't mean we SHOULD.  That's why animals are "hard-wired" to mate with their own kind.  Maybe if there were only one male crestie left in the wild, and one female chahoua, and they found each other-they may just be so overwhelmed with joy to see another gecko, that they decide they MUST create hybrid babies, or they will both be the last of their kinds.  If that happens-let THEM decide-it's THEIR fate.

You don't know what it would do to either species if any of the hybrids made it to the "real' out-side world, and if everyone does this, and sells the off-spring, how would you ever know if the geckos you buy down the line are pure chahoua or pure ciliatus or WHAT???  Can you be sure that other breeders would have enough integrity to tell you you were getting a hybrid??? I don't think so...It's NOT like we have an AKC type of pedegree system for geckos.  How will we ever know what we're getting??

Even if they were fertile, do we REALLY need another kind of gecko???  Look what you get when you cross a horse with a donkey-a sterile mule.

This is the second time in less than a week that I'm quoting Jurassic Park...we CAN lern from fiction-

"Dr. Ian Malcolm: God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs...
Dr. Ellie Sattler: Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth..."



Yeah-maybe I'm nuts-or maybe I just spent too much time snowed in at my mom's house the last few days, and it's effecting my mind.

[cml3.0]

I think I remember reading some where that there were some natural occurring hybrids of chewies and cresties...
If someone else remembers reading this, let me know.

[avmelvin]

aren't most dog breeds today jut the result of selective cross breeding? ex. chuwawas (spelled photonically, sry) were bread by the aztecs to sacrafice to the gods. terriers were bread to kill rats. the way i see it cml, cross breeding geckos isn't inhumane or torturous in  any way, and chances are that they're all sterile right so theres not much of a threat of them seriously affecting the environment if released. getting back to the inhumane thing, a lot of people dont like the idea of crossbreeding, but if they're your geckos and you're not doing anything to hurt them, then i think it should be upto you.

[firecrested]

I have always been against it and will never change my mind on it. The main reason, just what samanthajane posted.  If hybrids keep hatching how will you know your next purhcase is pure ciliatus or chahoua.

[Rhacodactyl]

That's why animals are "hard-wired" to mate with their own kind.? Maybe if there were only one male crestie left in the wild, and one female chahoua, and they found each other-they may just be so overwhelmed with joy to see another gecko, that they decide they MUST create hybrid babies, or they will both be the last of their kinds.? If that happens-let THEM decide-it's THEIR fate.

If they're hard wired to mate with their own species, why do they interbreed?  Nobody forces the chahouas and cresteds to reproduce, all you can do is put them together and see if they will, so basically those who produce hybrids do let the animals decide for themselves.  If they don't breed, you don't get hybrids and there's nothing you can do about it.  All the hybrids on the market today are the result of a chahoua and a crested intentionally breeding with one another. 

In reference to cml's post, if they encounter one another in captivity and breed, I'd say it's more than likely that such a thing has happened somewhere in New Caledonia at some point.  I personally don't know of any proof of this however.

[Rhacodactyl]

I have always been against it and will never change my mind on it. The main reason, just what samanthajane posted.? If hybrids keep hatching how will you know your next purhcase is pure ciliatus or chahoua.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but how do you know any gecko purchase is pure ciliatus or chahoua?  You can take one directly from the wild and not have any idea of its ancestry, yet those are always assumed to be the "purest."  For all we know, half of the cresteds brought into the US could have had chahouas for great great great grandpas.

[avmelvin]

good point rhac, i think of this issue the same way i do politics. i have my beliefs and untill i see a major problem with this issue, i'm not going to push them on anyone else. i'm not saying that i'm all for cross breeding, i really don't have an oppinion becuase i ahve no interest in it for the time being. i will say that the man i buy my geckos from is firmly against it and i respect him more than anyone else in the rhac field.

[smith710]

Ok, well I agree with some things said and I don't agree with some things said, and others just don't make sence to me.  I'll just have to give it some thought.  As of now I'm leaning more towards trying it out.  I most likely will not sell the babies of the two, I will just keep them for my own collection.  But I'm still not 100% sure of what I am going to do as of now.

[samanthajane13]

More than anything, I'm playing devil's advocate by asking my "what if" questions.  Think out the possiblities BEFORE you act.  Hind-sight is 20\20, foresight is much less well-defined.

You also have to understand that I'm an animal activist.  Now-I'm NOT gonna have you harrassed or have people picketing in front of your house or anything like that, but some of the groups I belong to WOULD do those things.  As long as you're caring for your animals humanely, I believe you have the right to do anything you want to-as long as it's not causing pain, harm, cruelty, neglect or death to them.  As far as I know, you love your animals as I love mine.  I protest people and organizations who torture animals in the name of big money.  Ringling Brother's Circus, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Iams, Proctor and Gambel, furriers, whalers, the owners\breeders of Pets Plus & Animal Addicts in lockport, NY, to name just a few.

I'm not saying NOT to do it, but to study all the ramifications before you do.

Ya can't UN-CROSS-BREED them if you find it was a bad idea.

You'll have hybrid babies...  What if-for example-they are just so darned ugly nobody wants them-not even you...or they're absolutely beautiful-but sterile.  Or for some genetic fluke of a reason, they're deformed.  As Katey jokingly put it, an extra leg sticking out of it's forehead or 3 eyes.

Then what?  Either you don't WANT to make more of them, or you simply CAN'T.

That's all I asking you to consider-BEFORE you cross breed.

[firecrested]

I have always been against it and will never change my mind on it. The main reason, just what samanthajane posted.? If hybrids keep hatching how will you know your next purhcase is pure ciliatus or chahoua.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but how do you know any gecko purchase is pure ciliatus or chahoua?? You can take one directly from the wild and not have any idea of its ancestry, yet those are always assumed to be the "purest."? For all we know, half of the cresteds brought into the US could have had chahouas for great great great grandpas.

There has been so much captive breeding that even if a wild crested did have chahoua blood in it most of their genes would be gone making it mostly crested.  If you buy a cross you're getting a 50%, that's way more than i want.

I dont like the hybrids and probably never will unless i hear a good reason to breed the two together other than they look nice.

[monster]

If they're hard wired to mate with their own species, why do they interbreed? ?Nobody forces the chahouas and cresteds to reproduce, all you can do is put them together and see if they will, so basically those who produce hybrids do let the animals decide for themselves. ?If they don't breed, you don't get hybrids and there's nothing you can do about it. ?All the hybrids on the market today are the result of a chahoua and a crested intentionally breeding with one another. ?

unfortunately that isn't always the case. take zebra/horses. the zebra male must be confined and never have any contact with his own kind before he will breed with female horses. a real test would involve both options for the geckos.

all that aside, do what you want smith, i personally am not interested in it, buying or breeding. as we know already, people are already doing it. maybe mother nature will skip one from being sterile. ?i work with plants quite a bit, for the longest time everyone though plantA x plantB was always sterile - until one day they discovered a whole riverbed full of these fully functional plant crossings. i would be really interested to read up on any naturally wild crossings discovered.

[KatiesCresteds]

As long as you are responsible, what would be the problem? It naturally occurs in the wild...Kind of ridiculous to say it doesn't, like saying there isn't another planet out there with life. I plan on doing some hybrid breeding in the future. The ones I do not/can not keep will be given to close family and friends, maybe some schools as pets. That's all. I really like that looks of them. It can't hurt to do it.

[smith710]

What if-for example-they are just so darned ugly nobody wants them-not even you...or they're absolutely beautiful-but sterile.? Or for some genetic fluke of a reason, they're deformed.? As Katey jokingly put it, an extra leg sticking out of it's forehead or 3 eyes.

First off, I don't care what the animal looks like when it pops out of the egg, I love animals and I would never just get rid of it because I think its ugly or something is wrong with it.  If something does happen, I will do everything in my power to make sure it turns out ok.  Like I said, I most likely will never sell the hybrids, It's just something I would like to do for personal interests. 

As long as you are responsible, what would be the problem? It naturally occurs in the wild...Kind of ridiculous to say it doesn't, like saying there isn't another planet out there with life. I plan on doing some hybrid breeding in the future. The ones I do not/can not keep will be given to close family and friends, maybe some schools as pets. That's all. I really like that looks of them. It can't hurt to do it.

This is exactly what I am thinking, and I am very responsible when it comes to my pets.  I have loved all types of animals since I was very young and reptiles are my main interest.  I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to the Rhac species but I've done my share of research to know pretty much everything I need to know to keep my Rhacs as healthy as they can possibly be.

[untytled]

I tried to stop myself from replying to this thread just because I've seen it so many times before and these threads (ironically enough)  reach great lengths yet never resolve anything. I can't help myself from reading them though.

All i wanted to contribute was, a simple question.

Those that say "it happens in the wild" where's the proof? Is there any documentation or photographic representation of these hybrids in the wild? It's really easy to say there are, BUT???

If there is please share. Don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty liberal guy and very easy going. I just don't like when people can't back up there words with proof. Prove me wrong!

Renato