Sick Leopards-- Need help please!

[Lauren and Hunter]

I am going to post a conversation I have been having with a woman I met through craigslist. We were talking about my taking her animals. But it seems that there is something wrong with them. I don't know anything about leopard illness, so if you guys know anything, we would both really love some advice. By the way, I did have her permission to post this.



Me:
 
I saw your ad on Craigslist. I am sorry for your misfortune. I can't imagine having to give up my animals.
 
We are reptile keepers ourselves and are interested in the geckos and beardie. We have got 12 cresties, a leopard, and a gargoyle gecko ourselves and are very knowledgeable. We also recently had our own beardie pass away (turns out she was diabetic and there wasn't a whole lot that could be done). Do you have any pictures?
 
Thanks for your time.


Her:

I got Drake (the bearded dragon) last August from someone else on craigslist. Not sure of the sex or age but is 14" long. The first crested (very pretty pink to red color) I got from the flea market in September, it had lost its tail. It is older than the other one (chocolatey but changes light to dark) which I got from Petsmart.. They are currently both housed together in a ten gallon which I know is too small to keep both of them in together (my intent was to build a bigger enclosure for Drake and then move them into the 55 gallon). I had also gotten 5 baby leopards from Petco in September. I have decided to keep one leopard for my son's class at school and the other leopard has had something wrong with her since I got her from Petco but she was so sweet I didn't want to take her back but she has gotten worse and I cannot afford to take her to the vet so I am hoping someone will take her in that can. oh yeah- 3 of the leos are female and 1 is male. The one that is ill has not been able to move her back legs for a couple days now, she was housed with the other leos in one enclosure and since they have gotten older and she was the smallest I think the male may have started bullying her but i am not sure. I got the all close to the same time and the petstores all say how easy and cheap they are to care for and the we got a collection and then the plant closed and we are just starting to see how much we were really spending now that we need every penny. I really love my pets they all have different personalities and are so sweet but we just barely have enough to get by now. Drake is in a 55 gallon with clamp light (that actually just sits on top of his cage). You would need a habitat for the leos because they are in a 20 gal that I want to keep with the one that is going to my sons class (and I have a 10 gal with Grr in it- she is the sick one). I would like $100 for all. I attached pictures. Thank you.


Me:

Thanks for the pics. We are just curious about a few things. First, how old are the cresteds and do you have any idea on the sex? Also, do you happen to have any pictures that show off their patterns and colors better. Which of the leopards are female and how old are they?

Thanks!


Her:

The nub tail crested is older than the other. The chocolate one is young. Do not know ages on any. The leopards are juvenile, I have an adult that is also going to a school and they are much smaller than him. I also only know the sexes of the leos- The very deep tangerine one (which will be the first and second pics in this response) is a male- the rest are female. The male (which we call Gordon) is a beautiful tangerine carrot tail. The other tangerine (we did call mr blik from the cartoon catscratch, lol) turned out to be a female and is not a pretty as Gordon but still tangerine with some carrot tail. The other 2 are bell albino (or so I am told) Waffle has lots of spots and mostly pink, Grr (the sick one) is mostly a pink and purply color. The leos were very very small when I got them so prob not more than 2 weeks old (we were actually only going to buy one but they really needed out of the petstore because they were so tiny) and we got them at the end of September- I will send a pic of what they looked like when I got them (but it was taken with a crappy camera so the quality is not so goodbut you will get an idea of their age I think). If you want more pics- I can take some better ones and send them tomorrow around 2pm, my son is going to a valentines playdate in the morning and we won't be home til around noon or 1.
Thanks.


Me:

Thanks for the extra pics. If you get time tomorrow we would love to see more pictures of those cresteds. We dont get out of work until 9:30 or so so you dont have to rush.

Thanks.


Her:

Here are some better pictures of the cresteds. Grima (what we call the chocolate one) was being very photogenic, but Golem (the pink one) was not wanting anything to do with the camera.


Me:
 
I really appreciate the trouble you have gone through with the pictures. I think that is the cutest pic of a beardie I have ever seen. $100 for all is an extremely good price, but we find ourselves mostly interested in Gordon, Golem and maybe Waffle. We are also on the fence about the other crestie. I can tell that the cresties are about halfway fired up or so. How intensely red would you say that Golem gets? And from the vent area pictures, they look kind of female to me, but it's hard to tell because I would really have to look for pores on the scales. That is sad about Grr :- ( I hope she gets better. Question: are Gordon and the tangerine female siblings?
 
Thanks again.

Her:

got the 2 tangerines at the same time from the same pet store- though there was a slight size difference, I would bet that they are siblings. Golum usually stays mostly pink though I have seen (her?) turn a deep red a few times. Grima seems to look almost greenish tan  sometimes and then a really deep chocolate. I tried handling them for over an hour last night to get as many different colors as I could. They also did not like being handled together (one of them- not sure which- made a kitten-like screech when I got them real close, so maybe if they were seperated Golem might fire up better). Golum is also real easy to handle, Grima is jumpy. Gordon is, probably, one of the most beautiful leopards I've seen. Waffle is a really pretty albino. Just let me know what you think

Ok I just got Gordon out to take a few more pictures and he like had a seizure of something. He is now not moving his back legs either. I didn't even have my hand all the way around him or anything he was just in my hand. Me and my husband agreed that if you will just take all the geckos- the 4 leos and the 2 cresteds, you can have them if you will just get them and take the sick to the vet, please. I don't know if the mealworms I got have something wrong with them, I just don't understand and I don't want anything bad to happen to them. I really just want them to have a good home with someone who can afford to take care of them.


Me:

Thats crazy about the leopards. That sounds like it may be a sign of calcium deficiency. Do you dust their food regularly with calcium? What are you feeding them?


Her:

They eat mealworms, I leave a dish in there. They are dusted with Sandfire Leopard Gecko dust by T-Rex.


Me:

The problem is either nutritionally related or is a disease that could be transmittable. Meal worms arent usually offered as the sole diet for leopards because for one, calcium doesnt stick that well and also they are very high in phosphorus which retards calcium absorption. Those symptoms sound kind of extreme for a case of calcium deficiency.

Her:

I did search around. I went on a reptile forum and alot of the people there said mealworms were a good diet. And I got the dust they said to use. I really don't know what to do. I can't afford to take them to the vet and they were all doing good until this past week.


Me:
 
Do you mind if I post this conversation in a few forums or message some people I know, to see if maybe they might have an idea about what could be wrong? I am not as knowledgeable as some about leopards but some people there are really into them.
 

Her:

Yeah I really want them to get better or know what I can do. I can't take them to the vet- if I had the money I would but I really can't.


Me:

I understand. We have been in situations just like these. I'm sure you are good, repsonsible reptile keepers who love your animals. Unfortunately, not a ton is known about these lizards yet and sometimes you can only try as hard as you can to figure out what is wrong and fix it, and they still don't make it. This sounds pretty serious if they can't move their back legs. So they never recover the movement? Prognosis sounds grim to me, but like I said, I will ask around and let you know what I find out.
 
Good luck.

[firecrested]

Petco leos I would pass on.  They are known to have crypto and you dont want that in your collection.  There were tons of sick looking ones and only a few that looked healthy when I worked there.
I dont know what's going on with the back legs, maybe an MBD problem but I dont know.  Doesnt sound good though.

[justanotherfroginthepond]

Sounds like calcium/uvb deficiency crashes to me, as well... you don't see it too often with cresties, though.  What's she feeding the cresties, and what do his sacs look like?  And you're right... mealworms are NOT a good base diet for leos.  I know neither requires much uvb, but with a bad diet they may not be getting ANY D3, and that can cause the same symptoms.  For the leo I would maybe try some Moon Drops (if they still make 'em).  It's a liquid calcium/D3 supplement for nocturnal species.  I've seen many a leo enjoy basking during the day under a heat and UVB lamp, so it doesn't hurt to use those either.

Bottom line... they're worth taking, but only if you're willing to treat and quarantine for at least a month!  Good luck!

[Lauren and Hunter]

Thanks so much for your input!

My main concerns:

Do you think it is too late for these geckos who can't seem to be able to move their back legs? That is probably irreversible damage, right?

In taking them to my home, do you think I could be exposing my other animals to something dangerous? I know it could be nutritionally related, but is there a possibility that it could be some kind of transmittable disease (either from leo to leo or leo to crestie)?

So if I feel like there is a chance that I could take these guys in and reverse damage in my home, I would consider it. But I don't have the resources to take in animals that just need to be brought directly to a vet. I don't have the money or time for that, and there is a chance that a lot of money would be spent without any real recovery occurring (or so it seems to me, since the back leg paralyzation sounds quite serious).

[justanotherfroginthepond]

No way of knowing unless you try on the legs.  I've seen them come back and I've seen them die.  Without a fecal on each affected and a vet's diagnosis there's no way to know exactly what you're dealing with, hence the quarantine.  You just have to either take a chance..... or not.   

[Lauren and Hunter]

Well, I ended up agreeing to take all of the geckos (5 leos and 2 cresties). $50. Plus she will give us some equipment. Basically, right now 2 are sick (and I can only assume others are on the brink). I think it must be MBD. It could also be impaction, but I kind of don't think so, because I think she kept them on a flat sheet of craft foam, and I don't really see how they would tear a hunk out of that. But I guess it's possible. I can't believe I am getting 7 geckos this week! That's half of what I have now.... It started out that I was still willing to take the cresties (which she feeds CGD, I was pleased to hear) once I was satisfied that the leos didn't have some kind of transmittable disease. Then, I decided I'd take the healthy leos. But I had had my heart so set on the pretty tangerine male who just became sick (Gordon) and I was hearing that I might be able to treat him and I just decided to go for rehabilitation. But then I couldn't leave the other sick one behind.... And finally, they e-mailed us saying that they had decided to give us the last one rather than give it to their son's classroom because they thought she would be better off with us. It was the husband's favorite one. So couldn't really say no, and we already had six, so what's one more? Oh my god. lol. When I get them, I will keep you guys posted about them (especially Katie who I might need more advice from). And I'll post pics. By the way, the lady thinks that the female who's been sick for a while is now slowly dropping her own tail :-(

[DarthGekko]

I just kinda skimmed the problem and if their legs are rubbery then it sounds like MBD. I take Zoomed or Repcal or Miner -All Indoor and put some on my finger and then rub some on their nose while I'm holding them. They will lick the calcium off of their noses. This is a good way to give them calcium in addition to dusting every meal. Sounds like they didn't dust the mealworms. Also, place a gatoraide cap full of Miner-All or Calcium with D3 in their enclosure. I would keep them dry but take them out and mist their heads 1-2 times a day to make sure they are licking the droplets of water off their heads. Make sure the heat is regulated at 90-92F. Try to keep it at 90 but it can go between 90-92F. I would also handle them last. That means do not touch them and then do something with your other geckos. Use hand sanitizer a lot. I would give them a moist rubbermaid hide in the cool area and a hot hide that sits over the hot spot. This is assuming the tank is being heated by a UTH. I do not reccomend overhead lightiing for Leo's. Watch their poops. If they look like brown torpedo's you should be okay. If they look very runny or like flemmy then you may have internal parasites. That opens another can of worms just watch for the symptoms. You can also premedicate everyone. Here's a link to Reptile Xtra meal. Get both kinds of the meal Parasite and Bacteria and follow directions. This was developed by Ron Tremper and is a good preventative measure for new leos. (Reminder: Get the meal not the Pellets). Anyways , hope this helps.

[Lauren and Hunter]

Thanks so much! I will take all of this to heart, and I might look for those calcium products you mentioned.

Two already didn't make it (the two sickest). We are down to 3 who have the best chance.