The quest to understand Phantom pinstripe

[Heather]

OK, let's play reading comprehension:

On AC's phantom pin morph page it says:
 "...eliminates the pattern and leaves the raised pinstripe scales and traces of lateral striping"
and
"As you can see, all of these geckos have the raised pinstripe scales...the majority also have the 'phantom' white markings, which is how they got their name."

when you look at the photos, the white markings i think he's talking about appear on the lateral stripe or in that area.
This made me think that the phantom pin morph requires raised pinstripe scales and traces of a lateral stripe and that the term phantom referred to lateral stripe patterning, that is to say "phantom lateral stripe with raise pinstripe scales" or "phantom Pin"
Then I read this that AC posted on the forum:

"I think it's obvious that they're different from a normal pinstripe because they don't have a flame (dorsal) pattern"
And
"The first 20+ phantoms I produced didn't have any white...they can have white on the pinstripe scales and the lateral scales"
And
"The main idea with the phantom is there's no cream or orange dorsal pattern. Eventually I hope to produce phantoms with completely white pinstripe scales."

In addition to this, we all know that the original name for the phantom pin was "Patternless Pinstripe" which all (collectively) leads me to conclude this:

The patternless pinstripe morph has everything to do with lack of dorsal patterning, and if pattern be present it be not flame. In addition to this, the pinstripe scales must be raised. Note that there is no relevance to pinstripe scale color, just that they are raised. The presence of a lateral stripe may also be necessary, but I am not entirely clear on this.

Does that sound accurate? what about that lateral stripe?

[Lauren and Hunter]

This has always caused a lot of confusion. My understanding was that the gecko had to have the raised scales where pinstripes would be, but no actual colored stripes (so no white parallel stripes). I didn't really think presence or lack of lateral stripes could make or break a phantom. The only thing that confuses me when Anthony talks about it is how he keeps mentioning white, for example:

"The first 20+ phantoms I produced didn't have any white...they can have white on the pinstripe scales and the lateral scales"
And
"The main idea with the phantom is there's no cream or orange dorsal pattern. Eventually I hope to produce phantoms with completely white pinstripe scales."

I thought the whole point of phantoms was that they didn't have white, but only raised scales?

I am going to attach a picture of a gecko in my collection that I was told was a phantom pinner.

Input from anyone else? I would like to know more about this as well.

[Lauren and Hunter]

Actually, check this whole thread out. This was my own quest to understand. There are also more pics of my Mr. Mustard there.

http://ciliatus.com/forums/index.php/topic,3724.0.html

[Lauren and Hunter]

"The first 20+ Phantoms I produced didn't have any white, so I thought that was how the gene worked...but as I produced more, I learned that they can have white on the pinstripe scales and on the lateral scales.  I think it's obvious that they're different from a normal pinstripe because they don't have a flame (dorsal) pattern."

I guess this confuses me. Julie had asked how a phantom could either have patternless pins (no white) or white/cream pins. How could a phantom be described in both of those ways-- aren't they opposites? Then the question was answered and I guess it made sense to her, but I am still hung up on that. 

"I think it's obvious that they're different from a normal pinstripe because they don't have a flame (dorsal) pattern."

^Anyone have pictures to help illustrate this point? So you are saying that regular pinstripes and phantoms with white raised scales have the exact same pinstripes and that the only difference between them is that the regular pinstripe also has dorsal patterning between them?

It has been said that patternless pins and phantoms are the same thing, but how can they always be the same if patternless pins have enlarged scales but no contrasting color and others of the same kind have the contrating color as well as the raised scales? Phantoms with cream colored raised pinstripe scales can't be called "patternless pins" by definition. Not trying to be the anal retentive type AC has dealt with before, just trying to understand 

Sorry this topic keeps popping up over and over again... maybe someone can put it to rest?

[jhawkk2004]

To the best of my knowledge, PHANTOM pinstripes and PATTERNLESS pinstripes are the same thing. AC was first calling this morph the patternless pinstripe, but apparently received a lot of mail saying this was a false name (misnomer) since it is contradictory. So he changed the terminology and began calling this morph the phantom pinstripe.

The distinguishing trait in there morphs is the raised pinstripe scales with no dorsal pattern. The pinstripe scales can be white or the base color, as long as they are raised. AC stated that his goal for the morph in the future is a solid colored crested gecko with white pinstripes. The lateral stripes are more or less a bonus feature on this morph.

This morph has nothing to do with a REVERSE pinstripe which is just a dark stripe along the sides of the dorsal pinstripe scales. Geckos with poor/no dorsal pinstripe scales can still have a reverse pinstripe.

This is the best understanding I have of the phantom pinstripe morph.

[uroplatus]

I was looking through ym cresty babies a few weeks back and I noticed one of my babies looking a little different to the others, I couldnt put my finger on it, but when I was looking through AC's website I saw something similar which was the Phantom pinstripe's. This little guy was produced from a pinstripe male and a tiger female. The pics dont really do it justice, its spines along its ack are really spikey like a pinstripes spines and it has a faint trace of a lateral marking.
I have already had an opinion of it from someone and it was confirmed as a Phamntom pin, what do you guys think it it?

[Lauren and Hunter]

Looks phantom pin to me.

Okay, I think I understand now, although I'd still like to see the pictures I asked for above, if anyone has them. Has a solid colored gecko with white pins been produced before?

[Heather]

To the best of my knowledge, PHANTOM pinstripes and PATTERNLESS pinstripes are the same thing. AC was first calling this morph the patternless pinstripe, but apparently received a lot of mail saying this was a false name (misnomer) since it is contradictory. So he changed the terminology and began calling this morph the phantom pinstripe.

The distinguishing trait in there morphs is the raised pinstripe scales with no dorsal pattern. The pinstripe scales can be white or the base color, as long as they are raised. AC stated that his goal for the morph in the future is a solid colored crested gecko with white pinstripes. The lateral stripes are more or less a bonus feature on this morph.

This morph has nothing to do with a REVERSE pinstripe which is just a dark stripe along the sides of the dorsal pinstripe scales. Geckos with poor/no dorsal pinstripe scales can still have a reverse pinstripe.
This is the best understanding I have of the phantom pinstripe morph.

EXACTLY!! ok. So I know what my problem was (or maybe still is lol), and I think I see it in other peoples posts. The term "Phantom" is not referring to the pinstripe area. just like the term "patternless" was not referring to the pistripe area. That's why I was mixing in reverse pin at first. because I thought the term "phantom pin" meant that the pinstripe was somehow only partly visable, so I was looking for a pinstripe trait that looked phantomy...maybe even outlined which is where I think the "phantom vs. reverse pin" debates started coming from. but as I think it turns out, the dorsal pattern is the "phantom" part. But you couldn't name the morph "phantom dorsal pattern with pinstripe" because that sounds tacky.
So now just wondering about that last part on ACs morph page where he says:
"As you can see, all of these geckos have the raised pinstripe scales...the majority also have the 'phantom' white markings, which is how they got their name."
The only white markings that the majority of the geckos pictured in that section have is a couple of latteral splotches or a bit of a line. i would just tlike to clarify whether this has any relevance to the morph...if it doesn't, I find it odd that Anthony would have written this to describe the morph.If I have correctly identified the problem, it may be worth contacting Anthony (the poor guy probably thinks we're slightly retarded) But the fact is, a lot of people are still confused. I guess what i'm saying is, I think the  morph description needs to be edited or added to for clarity because apparently it's only clear to a few of the people who read it.

[Heather]

Looks phantom pin to me.

Okay, I think I understand now, although I'd still like to see the pictures I asked for above, if anyone has them. Has a solid colored gecko with white pins been produced before?

I don't think so, because That's what AC is still working on in this morph (and it's gonna be wicked eh?)